Tonkin (Legion Wargames)

Effectivement, pas dans le CEFEO, une situation plus pour nos RI métropolitains...
Mais l'exemple de Nasan aurait dû plus servir... Infanterie métro + génie + artillerie...

But sending métropolitan troops would have meant a whole new involvement which neither the French population nor their politicians were interested in. Who can blame them? Indochina was in effect lost after RC4 in 1950. CEFEO could perhaps avoid being defeated but the ability to control the whole of Indochina was lost, and what is really the point of having a colony if you control only half of it and only during daylight?

The only chance would have been to send in a lot of troops early, much more than they did, and train them for jungle fighting (like GCMA or like the Gurkha in Malaysia) and offer complete independence within five years.

But then again, if so, why bother, why not just leave?

DBP was not really such a bad idea, like Na San, and it was not weak. But who could know that the enemy was to drag an entire artillery division there, dig it into the mountain, camouphlage the openings completely and succeed in supplying it with ammunition?

D'accord avec toi là dessus.
Mais si on livre bataille, faut y mettre les moyens.
Pour ce qui est de la jungle, y avait pas que ça, c'est surtout plus de GCMA et de commandos comme Bergerol ou Vandenberghe par exemple. Bref de la COIN !
Pour DBP, on savait quand même que les constructions étaient un peu "légères" pour du 105mm... Or, on savait que les viets avaient du 105mm...
Mais avec des si...
On savait aussi qu'un adversaire comme Giap ne jouerait pas sa partition s'il n'avait pas des chances de gagner, il avait appris... lui aussi...

The French had no way of logistically supplying DBP the material to protect themselves from artilley barrage. There were simply not enough planes and time to do that. Hanoi knew VM had the artillery but they were confident that VM would never be able to get the guns there. If they did, then they would never be able to protect them from French counter barrage and airstrikes. If they could, then they would never be able to supply the guns with ammunition.

But then we are speaking of the Vietnamese...

It will be interesting to start designing DBP properly as soon as Tonkin is done.

Certes mais la défaite est celle de la France et pas seulement celle du CEFEO.

Quand DBP tombe, c'est la défaite de la France...

Et pas seulement pour la France, c'est aussi une défaite pour la pensée de l'empire coloniale partout. Après DBP et Suez -56, c'était temp pour les Européens de revenir à l'Europe.

Kim Kanger a écrit:Et pas seulement pour la France, c'est aussi une défaite pour la pensée de l'empire coloniale partout. Après DBP et Suez -56, c'était temp pour les Européens de revenir à l'Europe.

Suez 56, c'est pas vraiment colonial, ça...

Suez 56, c'est pas vraiment colonial, ça...

Well...

Pour les anglais: remettre la main sur le canal nationalisé par Nasser
Pour les français: mettre un coup sur le museau de Nasser qui nous énervait avec le FLN en Algérie
Pour les israéliens: comme d'hab...
;-)

Tonkin is now off to Expo in Arizona in a few days. I have just completed version 2.7b. During five days I read through the rules 2.7a and adjusted some rules, filling in holes, removing bugs and orphans (when you remove rules there will always be sentences left in other places that still refer to these removed rules) and clearing ambiguities.

I have addressed several things. One was the fact that VM deemed it important to be present in the central delta area. In the game there was no such incentive. Now VM can get extra replacement points if there are enough VM units within a certain area, and lose points if there are no units there. Simple and straight.

The VM engineer can construct roads which now will stay there after the unit leaves the place. I have removed on the map several stretches of roads which were never used in the game nor historically. Basically, the only road in the highlands that was fit for motor trafic was the one VM repaired and built from Yen Bai to Dien Bien Phu.

VM sometimes took a break to gather supply. Now if VM decides not to spend supply and thereby opening up the possibility for the French not to spend one either and thereby skipping the whole operation phase (which usually favours the French), then VM will receive an extra supply dump at his HQ. Not only do they not spend one but the also receive one.

There is the new optional "Hero rule" where you can add youself into the game. A simple rule and no fuzz. Just for fun.

The VM independent regiments can now be in supply as the Tieu Doans (no need for a supply dump). The regiments part of a division still need the dumps. The reason the independent ones got off the hook was that they basically were a contruction of three Tieu Doans and lived of the land as they did. Many of them moved around in the delta and having to have a dump with them didn't work.

All rules that change or are added are done within the system. I hate arbitrary exceptions. Everything fits into the system and if I can I happily remove rules.

See the updated map here: http://www.kangerproject.com/tonkin2/

Nice job as usual.

Any news on the release date?

This summer, end of August I reckon. just like Ici.

Great. A good present when will have to go back to work !

Les africains en Tonkin:

Very nice map great

This is written by Mike Willner at Consim:

Solitare: I'm finding this is a great game for solitaire, though I'm limited right now to the training scenario. Let me share my views and I'll expand next week ... I have a week vacation with the family and I intend to spend a huge chunk of that time solo'ing Tonkin:

1) Looks: Beautiful game, graphically pleasing. The map is easy to read (has gotten a bit easier though, right Kim?). Counters are outstanding. I have gotten no end of comments from club members who walked past the game (which is set up on one of our long-term wargame play tables) on how great it looks. I think this is a major contributor to good solo play, as you spend a LOT of time staring at the maps.

2) Forces have pretty clear strengths and weaknesses, so the solo player can set a general strategy easily. I contrast this to games where both sides have similar armies, similar capabilities ... you are left wondering what to exploit for one side or the other. FEF paras and armor, VM big infantry divisions and small cadres clogging jungle roads.

3) The turn sequence contributes to keeping the solo player interested. Not knowing how many activations in a row or what operations will emerge keeps it fresh and surprising.

4) Counter density is low enough to make you think about what to do with each stack, and special units are rare enough that you can't just shovel them forward. This gives the solo player something to think about and ponder. I know I have a good solo game on my hands when I find myself standing over the map thinking through the implications of committing this armor unit or that para unit.

5) I think that the strategies are straight forward enough for both sides that the solo player can compartmentalize and play each one 'fairly'. So, in the training game, I decided on "hold the highlands, delay tactics along roads, draw the attack on the delta city to district the enemy" was the VM strategy. I decided "Hold the most distant high land city with para operations, fall like a hammer on the delta city, sacrifice the second highland city" as the FEF strategy. This basic outline allowed me to play both sides, with the FEF falling right into the VM trap in the Delta, but the VM having a hell of a time prying the para reinforced FEF out of the highlands.

Some potential improvements for solo play:

1) The political objectives are an obvious problem. Randomizing the placement didn't seem right (I mean, the VM would know their objective and fight to protect it). So I opted to take them out of the game entirely ... seemed the best way, just take the 5 point swing out of the mix.

2) Decisions about burning supply for the Ops phase, and what ops to select can become a sticking point ... hard to decide fairly. A game called "Summer Lightening" has a table for solo play that helps decide based on a decision tree like "Agressive" vs "Defensive" that leads to a series of choices that ultimately selects the defensive strategy. Dice driven. Something like this would be nice for Tonkin for the Ops phase, but would be a major design effort that isn't feasible at this point of development. Maybe post release I'll give it a try and post it here and on the Geek.

3) Limited Intelligence: face to face, not being able to examine the VM stacks turns out to be more of a factor than you would think. The FEF just can't be sure where the big infantry are lurking, or if a para drop is safe at that city. I can't imagine how to add this in, other than leaving a day after the VM move so that you don't clearly recall what is where ... a poor substitue but I can't image doing better. I think the solo players will just have to take the hit on this one.

Many times it is a vicious game. Last time I played it I sent a group of paras to Laos to counter a VM thrust from Vietnam. I succeeded and went for a hot pursuit when the VM units retreated back across the border. Then suddenly the VM units turned around, walked right past me and blocked the road back south where my supply was. Oops with a capital O . Never ever forget that VM units pay much less for the terrain when they move and that French units do not project a ZoC into forest which enables the VM to use double movement right past you. My remaining option was to walk right eastwards towards the delta through the forest. I looked at the track to see how many Ops remained and realised that all of them had to be spent just to save those paras. The question, of course, was whether VM was going to spend his remaing ops to chase me or if he was going to grab the opportunity to do something sinister somewhere else and force me to react and thereby leave my paras in the jungle...

As I have said many times before, this game will not reward you for playing well, it will punish you for playing badly

It will be published this autumn since Randy Lein at Legion Wargames at the same time is also producing Slouch hats & Eggshells (invasion of Vichy Syria in 1941) and Hell of Korea (an add on to B-29). Three good games to look for.

I'm doing the final graphics. Here are the new trench counters:

Final map. It is getting closer now. The counters are done and are off to the printer. The box is also done. Final graphic layout of the player aids are being done right now, and I'm fine tuning the last details on the scenarios and rules. Expect shipment in late November together with Slouch hats and Hell over Korea.

http://www.kangerproject.com/tonkin_map.jpg

I can't wait for the moment when Tonkin is finally out of the house. It has been with me for such a long time and it has changed so much from the original version from VaeVictis. I would say that it is more or less a new game, not just an updated version. You will recognise the system, but that's it.

Some playtesters have been confused and said that they simply don't know how to play. There are no frontlines and the enemy is all around you, in front of you and behind you. Other playtesters have enjoyed the chaotic feeling, a kind of "chicken race". The player who manages to put pressure on the opponent without losing his nerves regarding threats from the enemy will win, and believe me, this was exactly what the French and the Viet Minh commanders were doing historically.

When this is out of my house soon, then at last I can turn my attention to my other projects: "Dien Bien Phu, the final gamble" and "Heart of Darkness" (exploration in Africa) and "Colenso" on which I am the developer.

You have done really a great job !

Les règles reflètent vraiment très bien la nature très particulière de ce conflit.
Ce sera un très grand jeu AMHA.

Thanks!

A special feature is that when you play a scenario you will have a historical setup but you will not be scripted and forced to do what the historical counterparts did. It will not say that you will win only if you take Haiphong (although you probably do win if you do take Haiphong) or something. No, a scenario will give you a historic starting point and a certain strength to your force but then it is up to you to decide what you wish to do.

For example, the Hoa Binh scenario starts with a large part of the French force between Hanoi and the strategic village of Hoa Binh. Historically the VM pounded on the salient until the French decided it was of no use to stay there and retreated back to the delta. But perhaps the VM player will say: To heck with Hoa Binh, let's see how the French player reacts when I invade the highlands?

You will be totally free to test different strategies of you own.

Guys, take a look at the final set of Tonkin counters. They look great!


http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?50@657.bvt6cdElSp4.144@.1dd17eb3

I hope that we'll received the game before end of 2011, what a great Christmas present

I really hope so. We are working hard to get the remaining components ready as soon as possible. I will keep you all updated.